SE02 E04: Field notes: Featuring Riley Lewicki, Alanah Mortlock with special guest Amy Marvin
S02E04: Field Notes with Amy Marvin, Riley Lewicki, and Alanah Mortlock
[theme music fades in]
Anna 0:11
Okay. All right. I got a little teary. This also happens.
Kristin 0:15
[kindly] Classic Anna.
Anna 0:17
[announcer voice] Classic Anna. [Tearing up] Okay.
Amy 0:19
I like that. We have, like, crying. We have laughter. We have the drama of human life.
Anna 0:24
[laughs] That’s right. Yes.
[theme music plays]
Kristin 0:25
Welcome to thinking bodies: a feminist philosophy podcast.
Anna 0:33
Western philosophers have separated the mind and body, and here on thinking bodies, we're pulling at the threads that have always held them together. To do this, we crowdsource voice clips to discuss works in feminist philosophy that deserve more attention. Our podcast collages with these clips as a D-I-T experiment.
Kristin 0:50
That's right. This is a do-it-together podcast, sharing the sounds of feminist philosophy.
Riley Lewicki
My name's Riley Lewicki.
Alanah Mortlock
Hi, my name is Alanah Mortlock.
[theme music plays]
Anna 1:02
Hi, Kristin!
Kristin 1:03
Hi, Anna!
Anna 1:05
Today, we also have THE Amy Marvin with us. Hi, Amy!
Amy 1:09
Hello.
Anna
Welcome, Amy!
Kristin 1:12
Dear listeners, this is the very same Amy Marvin we've been thanking all along for organizing the Thinking Trans conference that we've been producing these episodes from. So this is sort of the bookend to our conference podcasting experiment.
Anna 1:29
And Kristin and I have been deep diving, we have been fan-girling, we've been going into phenomenal intersection where your work lies in feminist philosophy and the philosophy of curiosity and humor and trans philosophy.
Kristin 1:48
Yes. And we've come to find out that Amy is working on a monograph.
Anna 1:53
Yeah. How do we get a preprint?
Kristin 1:54
Wait, wait. A monograph… entitled Trans Fascination.
Anna 1:58
Amazing.
Kristin 1:59
And I checked this out with Amy before, but I must mention it because you are so multi-talented, I wanted to mention you are also a performer of stand-up comedy, which I am so interested in but I hear you're currently on hiatus.
Amy 2:14
You know, we just moved to Syracuse, New York, as part of the new job, and it takes a bit to get used to the local stand-up scene. They're different in every place.
Anna 2:23
I have so many follow-up questions even about that!
Kristin 2:27
Yeah.
Anna 2:28
Amazing.
Kristin 2:28
I learned so much just in the last bit going through your work. You're building a feminist philosophy of humor, a trans-feminist philosophy of humor, and sort of thinking about humor's oppressive and sort of derisive uses, but also humor's liberatory potential, which I just love. It makes me think about why Anna and I started this podcast, you know, I wanted, selfishly maybe, a space where Anna and I could laugh together, but like, in a philosophy way. So, you know, podcasting facilitated that.
Anna 3:02
[laughs] That's right. So, I was especially struck by your work on curiosity, Amy, where you argue that curiosity is not universally a good thing, and maybe particularly or especially for trans people, when increased visibility and attention can, and often does, lead to objectifying and sort of… ungendering gazes for trans people.
Kristin 3:26
Yeah, and I'm just curious if that connects to your new work, Trans Fascination, or...
Amy 3:32
Yeah, so, so, with that essay, um, so this was, “Transsexuality, the Curio, and the
Transgender Tipping Point.”
Anna 3:42
Great title.
Amy 3:42
Thank you. But yeah, I was, I was really interested in, you know, the ways that, and I think that this ended up being a pretty big thing in trans studies more broadly, right? Like, we just went by Trans Day of Visibility, and I think during the current moment, like, a lot of us are feeling, like, more and more ambivalent about visibility. Because, like, it's nice to, you know, have your concerns heard, and, you know, be recognized, but also visibility is something that often reduces people, right, to how other people want them to be seen. Right, an aspect of visibility is also surveillance, and also, like, it can involve the reduction to being just a curious object for people. So, I think that through that essay, I was really interested in the ways um, were often kind of encountered as this strange curiosity.
And this is something that, that I feel like I grew up with, to a large extent, right? Like, when, when people found out I was trans, but also just, like, the kinds of media, um, that I grew up with, you know, in the 1990s. Like, we had stuff like Jerry Springer, which was, like, this talk show in the U.S. where they were always revealing, like, “oh, no! your girlfriend is, like, really a man!” And then everybody would laugh. Or, or just the ways, even, like, when I started, you know, my undergrad studies and whenever we were mentioned, even in, like, feminist philosophy spaces, it was often as, like, this puzzle to kind of, like, work through and figure out.
So, I made, like, I kind of inflicted some jargon upon the world. So, so I kind of, like, made this concept of, of “curiotization,” which is sort of the ways that we're transformed into a curio. And I'm kind of, like, interested in curios in general, because, like, I remember going to, like, my, my aunt had this, like, mystery bookstore in New York City that she ran for many years, kind of on the Upper East Side. And, she'd always have, like, all these cool objects, lying around her apartment, like, skeletons and, ravens and all kinds, you know, cool mystery, thriller stuff. And I was, like, oh, “I almost feel like I'm being, like, looked at as, like, the cool, like, skeleton on the shelf.”
So, curiotization kind of names, like, the process. Because, you know, l, there's also, like, “Walk on the Wild Side.” I'm actually, like, yeah, I'm in Syracuse right now where, like, Lou Reed lived at one point. So, it' kind of, like, a fun crossover there. But, yeah, yeah. And then I feel like with the trans fascination book. I got very focused on the ways that, like, we’re sort of reduced in the eyes of others. But I kind of felt like there's also a drama to the ways that a lot of non-trans people approach us that isn't, like, getting read into that situation. And I really wanted to get into, like, the drama of how non-trans people get fascinated with us and what it does to them. So, I'm kind of, like, trying to build upon that concept. And also rethink transphobia, I think, in some key ways in relation to attention. And the kinds of attention that we get.
Anna 6:55
How productive. Yeah, that's, that sounds like a fertile area to, like, think about. That's amazing.
Well, we're so glad you're here. We thought that it was only fitting to have you with us as we finish our series from the Trans Thinking//Thinking Trans conference. Had so many wonderful conversations at the conference. Um, and we learned so much. And now we have the person who made that possible here with us. And so we're just so delighted.
Kristin 7:24
Yeah. And Amy, one of the discussions that we started with in this series was about philosophy conferences.
Anna 7:31
Yeah. Actually, one of the discussions we started with, um, was, uh, who was your favorite Golden Girl?
Kristin
So at the risk of like, uh, the risk of crashing this conversation. Uh, Amy, do you have a favorite Golden Girl?
Amy 7:46
Okay, so, I must admit, I have not watched The Golden Girls.
Kristin 7:50
Oh, see? There’s the risk.
Amy 7:51
My partner is a fan of The Golden Girls, and she's in the room. I don't know if she would -- do you mind if I check with her?
Anna 8:01
Please!
Amy 8:02
[away from the mic] Would you be willing to come over here and say who your favorite Golden Girl is? No pressure. You can say no.
Anna 8:07
No pressure!
Amy 8:09
Okay. She's gonna think about it.
Kristin 8:13
Amazing.
[music plays]
Amy 8:16
This is Isobel Bess.
Kristin 8:18
Hmm, who we've also been thanking!
Isobel Bess 8:21
I gotta go with Dorothy.
Anna 8:23
You're- you're a Dorothy. Okay.
Kristin 8:25
Yeah. That was, uh, what the most popular answer. Yeah.
Anna 8:29
That was the most popular answer!
Kristin 8:31
Thank you!
So, okay. We- we- our question really is about conferences and- and how yours was so well-planned and had great food and lovely speakers. And we just sort of wanted to ask you, what do you like and dislike about philosophy conferences?
Amy 8:49
Yeah. So, I feel like from my earliest experiences with philosophy conferences, they've been very good when, l I feel like -- and this is my goal with, like, giving a talk, right? – you give a talk and the goal of the talk is to get invited to have lunch or dinner with someone, right? Like, I feel like the social aspect of- of the conference, right? Hanging out with a new group of people, um, meet them, chatting after. I feel like that seems more important to me than the actual, like, sharing of the work. And I think over time, you know, some other goals I have now with a talk, is to make the room laugh, if it's a more funny kind of talk, or sometimes even when it isn't, it's kind of interesting to, like, make the room laugh. Um, but I think at the end of the day, the social element is, like, what redeems the conference for me.
Kristin 9:42
Hmm.
Amy 9:42
so, like, when I was planning the Thinking Trans conference, like, in terms of how, like, the schedule was set up, I was like, this is going to be, like, a hangout-type conference. There's going to be a bunch of time in between the talks. So we're going to keep the talks a bit shorter. Um, and we're just going to aim for people to hopefully, like, leave having made a new friend or something like that.
Anna 10:03
Oh!I love that! That is a great aim for a conference. Uh, everyone gets to leave with a new friend! That's, like, that's perfect. Oh, that's so lovely.
Amy 10:13
So, I was really happy to hear, like, at the end of the conference, some of the younger people just hang out together. And I was like, “that's great! That's all I wanted from this.”
Anna 10:22
Yeah, and they did. We could see that, partly the space was really great, too, for that. But, like, we could see them doing that in between talks, which is amazing. We've been talking to, um, and with contributors about the need for conferences like this one. And especially in the context of, um, Western Euro-American philosophy that, until very recently, just often operated as though trans people don't exist. Um, so the assumption of trans existence really shifts how we ask, at least, some philosophical questions, um, what sorts of answers can make sense? And so I'm wondering if this was on your mind, planning specifically a conference in trans philosophy.
Amy 11:05
Yeah, I think, you know, I often think about, like, what is the definition of trans philosophy? Or, what is the distinction, you know, that we could make, like, between trans philosophy and not trans philosophy? And I think, like, probably that distinction at some level is impossible, like, things are gray and, like, complicated.
And I have this essay that's, like, “The Circulation of Trans Philosophy” where I'm, like, people use this, like, like, if you look on X, if you, like, search for, like, “trans philosophy,” you're going to have people who are really upset about, like, “the trans philosophy,” you know, and, the “trans cult” that's spreading, like, this gender ideology and, you know, so forth. But I think at the end of the day, you know, one thing is that I feel like trans philosophy goes beyond, like, the, you know, l, the kind of, like, academic enterprise of, like, publishing. And I think it goes beyond that kind of more like the spatial aspect of it, right? Like, creating a space where we can get together, but also non-trans people can get together. And ultimately, I think, like, the topic that's distinct there is, a way of doing philosophy with trans people that isn't putting us on trial.
Anna 12:20
Right.
Amy 12:20
I think that's kind of the key distinction is that in trans philosophy, we recognize that there's a lot more interesting things to talk about our lives and kind of work through, you know, some of the problems of our lives and also, like, the joys of our lives and so forth that don't involve, like, putting us on trial.
Anna 12:40
Yeah. Just so. Yeah. Okay. We've also talked about how the very fact of having a trans philosophy conference is a really big deal.And one day we hope it won't be, but it's still a really big deal. And you did that. And that's amazing. And I'm tearing up! [laughs] But on the podcast, we've been thinking about and asking about the discipline of philosophy sort of generally. And you're speaking to that – so what it includes and excludes and how method and tradition sort of are implicated in that.
And so one of the questions that I asked our contributors today is this question. What does it mean to have a trans philosophy conference? And so this is what they said.
[music plays]
Riley 13:24
The conference is lovely.
It's coming a few months after the Second International Trans Studies Conference. And so it is, it almost feels like a more refined or more directed follow-up. And, you know, I'm seeing a lot of the same faces and the same friends, but I'm getting to catch up on their work and to kind of find out what we've been working on. I'm going to have to break it to a friend of mine, but she came up to me last time, and she said, you know, “I love your talk about how you're mixing anime and phenomenology,” and I'm not doing that at all this time. And she saw me again, so I hope she's not horribly let down.
Anna [in the background]
Yes. That would be sad.
Riley
But what does it mean to have a Trans Studies conference? Um, or a Trans Philosophy Conference, I suppose. It's more accurate. I think, on one hand, it provides us an opportunity to catch up and know each other and make the connections we all need to make. And to, experience academia as being among equals. Even though there are still hierarchies here, of course, but, we're among equals in a way that we're not and cannot experience, usually, in our own departments where we are one of two, one of one trans people in the department. And we have to face these, uhm, isolating conditions alone. So, it is this beautiful coming together. On the other hand, thinking about the current regime, the next year, I'll have less places to apply, less places to present, and I wonder what that does to my resume, to my chances of employment. And the academic job market is famously horrible, and my PhD is almost up. So, I'm sitting there, going, we'll see. And so I think that's kind of the part two of that.
[music plays]
Alanah 15:43
So, my experience at the conference was kind of curtailed, only last minute. So, I'm based in the UK, and I was supposed to be traveling to the conference. I was very fortunate, that I have research support fund that was allowing me to travel to attend the conference. And literally the day before I was supposed to travel after kind of ongoing discussions with my personal support system, but also my institutional support system, it was decided that I shouldn't travel because of the moves and changes being made by the current administration in the US.
I kind of, I have, I have, I have sort of, two prongs, uh, reflection on that. The first is, just how important it is that this conference is happening in this moment, and this is something that we talked about across the conference. Uh,how important and, and revitalizing is to have a space to come together for many of the, for many of the participants, trans people, but for all of the participants, people who are invested in trans politics, and well-being and trans, um, the possibilities of trans life, how important it is to have a space to come together and be with each other and, and talk about the things that are so important, uhm, and growing in importance in the face of, increased surveillance and violence to our communities. But the second side of that is, and I did have a wonderful, uhm, experience of the conference. I thought that the way that the organizers had, uhm, made the hybrid, uh, nature function was really successful, and I felt like I could participate, pretty fully, although, being in front of the computer screen for hours on end is always kind of tiring. But I think the second side is really just a reminder of how far there, there still is to go, and also how we can't rely on kind of a linear march forward.
I actually ended up being at this conference because I met, Amy, the wonderful organizer, at the International Trans Studies Conference in Chicago last October. And having traveled to the U.S. for that conference, the idea you know, at that time I wouldn't have been able to imagine that six months later, that's not something that would really be viable. I think it's, for me personally, and I'm sure for, for many others, it's a really stark, and difficult reminder yes, we have victories, and yes, we, get closer to our end goals, but, we have to stay vigilant, we have to stay active because, yeah, unfortunately, it's not, it's not, uhm, a linear progress narrative.
[music plays]
Kristin 18:38
You know, it reminds me of what Jules Wong also said about the conference. That – and this goes back to something even you said, Amy – is to have a conference where it's just a given that everyone is invested in making transition a livable possibility means like doing philosophy together, even with different training and methodologies and sort of within that, assuming that critiques and conversations are in good faith, right?
Anna 19:12
Yeah. We want to ask you, um, as the organizer, what did hosting a Trans Philosophy Conference mean? What does it mean to host a Trans Philosophy Conference?
Amy 19:25
Yeah, I think, um, so I've been doing this for- for a bit, um, so there was like the first national, uh, Trans* Experience and Philosophy Conference back in, like, 2016. I was at University of Oregon and, had co-organizers Megan Burke and Fulden Ibrahimhakkioğlu, and I felt like, I don't know, it felt like a very special moment. I, you know, kind of returning to what I said about the ways that we're often reduced to a curiosity or, like, a side issue or, like, a sort of trivial or, or interesting topic in philosophy. I think having people come together who might, like, run into each other occasionally, like, at other conferences, um, but I think having them get to come together in a space of kind of building that trust, right?, building that kind of together, um, focused on our lives and the things that matter to us, I think that can be special in a lot of ways.
And I think I was hoping.. you know, I've been, I've been doing some of this for a while, um, and what I really liked about this time is I actually had a postdoc where part of my job was planning events. So it kind of felt like the first time I ever, like, got paid to do this, ‘cause I've been, you know, like, kind of involved for a while and different people have put on different iterations of the conference. Um, but, but yeah, I think I felt kind of special as, like, you know, the moment I'm like, oh, I'm actually compensated from this a little! Also I had been, you know, had been jumping from, from, like, college to college for a while and I left the academy for a bit. And I think, like, being there the second year at Lafayette College where I had already organized, like, several events, it was like, “oh, like, I can actually, like, be, like, a bit of an artisan about this stuff now, right?” Like, “I've planned events here. I know how events work. I've planned conferences before.” So I was kind of like, “let's, like, go all out and, like, try to make this, you know, at least, like, draw from, from my experience and, and the things that I've learned organizing with other people, and try to make this one, you know, as special as, as I can make it.” Try to bring together as many different fields in philosophy and perspectives and some people who are not in philosophy directly.
And also, I really wanted it to be, like, an international event, which, you know, when the Trump administration came in, then I, then it was very, like, I had to be very hands-on with email. Like, people were emailing me and being, like, you know, “I'm unsure if it's safe to go.” And I think that the hybrid mode really saved us then, right? Because we were already set up for hybrid. I was just kind of, like, you know, like, “don't force yourself to go if it doesn't feel safe. We'll get you on the Zoom.” Um, and I think a lot of people went through that experience. So it was, it was, yeah, it was… there were a lot of ways where, where that, where planning this conference felt like coming full circle. But then, you know, I was hit by, like, the uncertainty of, of the new moment at the same time. So, so there's always, you know, you always think you have, like, stuff down and you figured it out and then something, you know, surprising happens. And you just try to do things the best you can in light of that.
Anna 23:06
Yeah. I mean: success. You, you did that really well! And also, a big shout out to Isobel Bess for all of the hybrid support. Like, when you were doing the other part of the hosting, which is often kind of demanding in a different way.
Kristin 23:27
Totally.
[music plays]
Anna 23:28
Yeah, so wrapping up our Field Notes series,I was hearing ways that we might have talked about gender have forefronted variability…
Kristin 23:39
And you know, for me, I think back to like, I don't know if you, you're familiar, or if you've also read this, you know, the Elizabeth Spelman's old book, I, mine is all dog-eared. And I pulled it out thinking today about, you know, sort of, how do we bring in some of this complexity where we're still talking about what concepts do, you know? And I was thinking about her book, Inessential Woman, from like 1988, and she talks about this pop bead analysis of oppression, right? Where you line up all these discrete categories, like pop beads, and she's saying that, you know, that doesn't really work. You know, gender oppression can't itself be isolated, and then said to be, you know, that the part of you that is oppressed as a woman is the same across everyone with woman-ness, right? Like how would that concept not vary as well? It sort of fails to recognize how femininity is encoded through sort of normative whiteness.
[music plays]
When we talked to Matthew Cull, they were mentioning how, like, normative system, gender systems, like Euro-American, uh, gender system, really simplify and flatten out these complex lived features, you know, into, like, purportedly more easily understandable categories, which is kind of the philosophy move, right? And so it's like, there's, there's an inherent tension there, you know, this is the tension I find a lot in, in feminist philosophy… it’s sort of like, you're describing the world we inhabit, but also the world, as we sort of see behind these obscuring norms and rigid systems. We know that there's more complexity, and, um, and these systems are just set up in such exclusive and oppositional ways, you know. It, it brings up this question of why these categories are so rigid and binary, even if no person, no one person empirically or perfectly instantiates, you know, these things associated with, say, you know, being a woman or being feminine, you know? To be” fully masculine”… isn't that what's being called “ascending”? I hate making jokes from that part of the internet, but anyway, like dominating at being masculine, it's like a, you know, it's a, it's, it's so weird. Sorry, so weird.
Anna 26:03
So weird. And also “EW, David!” [imitating Alexis Rose]
[Kristin laughs]
Anna
[sighs] I think, too….. It's like… yeah, to recognize that about gender norms is to understand that they don't operate in isolation, as well.
Kristin 26:19
Yeah, I think about this sometimes how we divvy up identity factors is not like, how they're lived at all, you know. I can't separate my whiteness from my womaness, you know, like, where's the white part? Where's the woman part? You know? Even Sojourner Truth, you know, pointing out the absurdity, the complete absurdity of being asked to join in the women's movement of that time, you know, when these white women support and benefit from white supremacy, like, and, and these differences matter. They matter for solidarity. They matter for political organizing. They matter in lived experience, but also in the philosophy register around theorizing oppression. You know, is, among many other things, a lived multiplicity.
Anna 27:02
Yeah. And that connects to the conversations we've been having about the ideal rational person, because able-bodiedness and able-mindedness is implicit in the default notion of the human. but that means that for each of us, because we have unique combinations of embodiments and racializations and genderings… and language and class and disability and ability and sexual orientation, we're affected by the binary gender system in different ways.
Kristin 27:27
Yeah, I guess it just sort of makes me a little curious, Amy, about how, how do you talk to students about sort of theorizing, conceptualizing gender, but also holding on to multiplicities, sort of like, where does that fit? How, how, how, how do you sort of work around that with, with students and in your own work?
Amy 27:47
Yeah. So I, I feel kind of lucky you know, because like my dissertation was, on feminist political theory. Um, but I had never gotten a chance to teach like a feminist philosophy or a feminist theory course. So, so this semester, I'm reaching the end of the semester and I got to teach a feminist thought course for the first time. And it's just been fantastic. I was like, Oh, this is like the most in my element, you know, that I get. Um, yeah. And I think, you know, there, there's a lot of different ways to approach this, kind of the way that I organized my, my syllabus is that I had like, we sort of start with a unit called “Thinking Woman.”
Kristin 28:36
Hmm.
Amy 28:36
So we start with “Thinking Woman.” It's about, like, the history of women thinking about gender and oppression. And we have Sojourner Truth in there. I also, I brought in some, early feminists from China, because I wanted to, like, think a bit more globally, because they're also thinking about, you know, stuff like what, like, what is women's suffrage amounting to in the West? Well, often it means you seek employment, and then you're just, like, enchained to employment, right? So, so, so I think there were some really interesting connections there. And also Anna Julia Cooper, uh, so A Voice from the South, where she's also thinking about, like, specifically, the education of Black women. Um, and then I get to “Thinking ‘Woman,’” but now, like, “woman” is in quotes, so that's where we get to, like, what is sex and gender?
Anna 29:28
Ah, yeah!
Amy 29:28
And then, you know, we think about that in relation to race as well, um, in relation to colonialism. Um, and then we had our nice, like, two-week spring break. We come back, and then we did “Politicizing Women,” so now we're focused on, you know, feminist political theory, um, and, like, what are the kinds of, like, concepts that we mobilize in feminism that also leads to doing stuff? Like, we have a concept called sexual harassment, uh, that we can actually codify into, like, law and public policy.
Anna 29:55
Right.
Amy 29:55
You know, and, and, and there's this fantastic essay by Deirdre Davis, um, on street harassment as well, that we, and specifically street harassment, as it, as it targets Black women. Um, and then, and then now we're wrapping up, we have, uh, “Politicizing ‘Women.’” So now we're thinking about, like, what are some key differences between women. We've been reading from, uh, Serene Khader’s new book; uh, Faux Feminism, a little bit; we do have Sophie Lewis's, uh, Enemy Feminism show up.
Kristin 30:30
Nice.
Amy 30:30
We’re reading Chandra Mohanty’s work, who actually used to teach at Hamilton. So that's kind of a, a fun connection. And, in the department that I'm in now. Um, and then we kind of conclude with, like, we have two moments of, like, you know, the “trans stuff,” right? Like, and, and the trouble that trans causes, right? So we kind of, like, we looked at, like, Alex Burns' book in relation to Megan Burke's book. And then we, uh, we kind of conclude with, like, Holly Lawford- Smith, but also Sophie Lewis, um, and, and Natalie Wynn or ContraPoints. Um, so yeah, I think, I think I'm really interested in, like, these tensions and differences that always show up in collective thinking and agency. Um, that's kind of interesting, right? We're never fully solidified. We always have to, like, rethink things. And in the context of all these, like, political shifts, and who we want to include, and, like, who we want to exclude. So I think, like, the active, complex thinking of feminism is just so generative.
Anna 31:32
Yeah. And good training – we've talked about this on the podcast before – good training for sitting with uncertainty, becoming more capable of dealing with that, which also seems like, um, an amazing thing to be able to teach and to learn how to do with that. I might have to ask you for your syllabus, because that organization sounds amazing!
Amy 31:55
I feel like I really lucked out where, like, it's, like, kind of based on clever titling, but also it's, l, it's, it's working really well in, in sequence. And there's stuff like, you know, we kind of, like, conclude like, towards the end, we talk about Holly Lawford-Smith's, Gender Critical Feminism book, which is also, like, a book that's deeply anti-intersectionality. Like, she jumps in and she's, like, intersectionality is a major problem for feminism. We have to go back to some, like, imagined past or something. So…
Kristin 32:24
Hmm…
Amy 32:25
So I think that it's, it's really interesting that, you know, when, when students encounter that, it's not just about, like, trans inclusion, but also, like, you know, like, thinking about feminism as a type of solidarity that we engage in, and not, that isn't just, like, focused on, on white women of a specific class. Right. So, so I think that there's, there's ways that, that all these things kind of connect and push us.
Anna 32:49
Yeah. [vibing]
So… the next question that we asked people story you tell about what philosophy is? Or, how do you understand philosophy?
[music plays]
Riley 33:46
That's a great question and I'm still asking myself wrapping around the idea of if I want to call myself a philosopher, um, partially because I'm incredibly indebted to Arendt who rejected the, title and I am sympathetic to her rejection of it, especially view of philosophy as inspired by a traumatic response and a pulling away. And I want to move less away and more towards, to be more enmeshed in culture and society. And I think that is something philosophy hasn’t done and it often refuses to do. But it does have this totalizing, antipolitical tendency to say “no, this is true.” And I’m skeptical of that impulse.
… “theory” or “theorist” or, to be pretentious, “communicativist,” I think these are all better terms than “philosopher” for myself.
[music plays]
Anna 34:06
That point that Riley makes about, um, coming from Arendt, philosophy being inspired by traumatic response and a pulling away. And yet the need to become more enmeshed with the world or to recognize our enmeshment with the world, is a really interesting feature to pull, to pull out of Arendt's work and thinking about what we say about philosophy…. Yeah. That’s an interesting way to come at that.
Kristin 34:50
I mean, I think it's a kind of push pull, right? You know, we're trained, Riley's trained as a philosopher, but hesitant to call herself a philosopher. You know, many philosophers with sort of, I use the term oppositional consciousnesses, right? People who are taking on social justice perspectives as they are doing philosophy, um,
Yeah. You know, Simone de Beauvoir said she wasn't a philosopher either. And, you know, um…
Anna 34:59
Yeah, I understand that hesitancy because, like, philosopher has a different valence than biologist or geographer. Like, if you say in certain contexts, I'm a philosopher, it comes off in a particular way, right? Like, I usually say, even in university settings, I usually say “I do philosophy” or “I'm the philosophy department.”
Kristin 35:20
Yeah.
Anna 35:21
Something along lines.
Kristin 35:23
I'm a philosopher. It sounds like maybe…
Anna 35:27
…Yeah. Like, “nice to meet you. I'm a wise sage.”
[Kristin laughs]
Right? Like, it's a way, it's a way… it's not the same as biologists.
Kristin 35:34
No.
Anna 35:34
It's just not the same.
Kristin 35:35
Yeah… it's always like, “yeah, I don't care if a tree falls in the forest,” you know, like I don't know. Um, yeah, actually, to bring it, I always worry, because I go to a lot of comedy shows, you know, and then they're doing crowd work and asking people what they do. And I'm always just like,
Anna 35:55
[imitating panic] Nope! nope, nope, nope… [laughs]
Kristin 35:57
What am I gonna do?
Amy 35:59
Well, I think of like, you know, I've been on a plane before, and, and someone's, you know, sometimes you get like a friendly person.
Anna 36:07
Yep.
Amy 36:07
And then they ask you, what do you do? And then you're going to be next to this person potentially, you know, for like, several hours. So, so I feel like I used to lie.
Kristin 36:16
Oh,
Amy 36:17
I would say stuff like I'd say stuff like, oh, like, you know, um, I work at a dentist office. And then that would be a little fun, you know, because I'd be like, you know, it's like, I'm roleplaying. It's like, I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons on a plane…. [Kristin and Anna laughing]
I’m like “what would a person who works at a dentist's office…” or, or maybe that's off-putting enough, you know, that they're going to stop talking to me.
Anna 36:37
Yep.
Amy 36:38
But, but now I think more and more, like now that I'm in Women's and Gender Studies, I think it's funnier to say that I'm a philosopher [Anna laughs] because now, you know, like I'm like, like a lot of people would be like, oh, that's women's and gender studies. They're like the, the woke political, unphilosophical discipline. So now like when I'm like, I'm a philosopher, I feel like I'm kind of pushing at, you know, what that means a little.
[Anna laughing]
Kristin 37:00
I like that.
Anna 37:02
[Kristin laughing]
I love, I love the idea of role-playing on a plane! I feel like there's a reality TV show. Where, I'll just throw it out there. I will take calls, folks.
Kristin 37:09
yeah. “Philosophers take on personas on planes.”
Um, I'm sort of in a similar position, uh, in a, in a Humanities department. So I can kind of be different kinds of things, but I use “Philosopher” in at least my work life often as an excuse. So if, if somebody wants me to do something tech heavy, I'm like, you know, I'm doing my best, but I'm a philosopher. You know, [hand waving] you have to forgive me. And, uh, it, it works!
Anna 37:41
Yeah. It can get you out of…. It’s true
Kristin 37:41
weaponized philosopher incompetence. [laughing]
Anna 37:45
Yes. Weaponized incompetence! [laughing]
Kristin 37:47
Okay. we're getting to the story of philosophy from Alanah.
[music plays]
Alanah 37:55
I feel like, philosophy, at least the kinds of Black and trans philosophy that I'm engaging with. It's like, it's where all the good shit is happening. It's where, um, it's where I'm finding the really, like, interesting and exciting and radical theory that’s not invested or not putting stock in kind of, piecemeal, iterative, inclusion-based frameworks, but really kind of invested in transformation, in rethinking, the fabric, the structure of our social world. And imagining, a new – I really hate the term new because I don't like kind of a progress narrative – but a, a different and otherwise and elseward, relation to subjectivity and social life, um, and ontology. I also think that, so, because I'm not, I'm not in the stricter sense of philosopher – not even in the stricter sense – I'm not really a philosopher. I wouldn't call myself a philosopher. I get to, I get to pick and choose the bits that I think are most exciting, the bits that I think are most interesting. And in that kind of realm Black philosophy and trans philosophy that I'm really engaging with, um, I understand it as a space of possibility.
[music plays]
Kristin 43:30
So trans philosophy and Black philosophy, and Black trans philosophy… is “where the good shit is happening.”
Anna 43:35
“It’s where all the good shit is happening!” [Kristin laughs]
Yeah, paying attention to the ways that particular kinds of philosophy, the kinds of philosophy that are already sort of turned toward the world, coming out of the world with self-awareness. Not only enmesh philosophy in the world to, to use, um, Riley's word, but also very often allow us to recognize social trauma and sometimes even personal trauma. And some of those, um, things for some of us definitely do bring us to philosophy. I think I, I really relate to that.
Um, all this I find really interesting because I think there are many philosophers and I might be one of them... uh, Kristin might be one… Amy, you might be one of them, too, who really can't separate doing what we think of as good, rigorous, well-informed, grounded, uh, care work from the kinds of methodological questions we ask in feminist philosophy and critical race, race, philosophy and philosophy, disability, decolonial philosophy and, um, trans philosophy, but so much of how orthodox philosophy proceeds, often either takes itself to be uninvolved with or uninterested in those kinds of existences, or to be in the business of, maybe better, be in the business of questioning the very existence of patriarchy, and of white supremacy, and other kinds of racism,and in the case of transness, of trans people, right, not as critique of those systems, but as an attempt to get rid of the need to think about them at all, and, um, that's a very interesting move, I think, to put it diplomatically.
Kristin 45:04
Yeah, like, we're not trained in many parts of philosophy to think about how our speech, or teaching, or writing might show up, or feel, or be for someone other than ourselves, you know, if, or if we are, you know, the presumed audience is, is other philosophers, you know, professors even, who might not be very, you of, of, of people in general, you know?
Anna 45:30
Right, yeah.
Yeah, that seems, that seems right. So there's something to unpack here, because it's coming up in us thinking about trans philosophy, and maybe it's that many kinds of contestatory philosophy, um, are philosophically grounded, um, more in particular methods and orientation than they are in content, and Amy, you were talking about this earlier, like, a lot of feminist philosophy isn't about women about as such, right? It's, um, it provides a particular starting point with certain features, but then we can talk about all sorts of things coming out of that.
Amy 46:08
Yeah. I think, you know, I think if we look at the, right, the history of feminist philosophers, right, like, they're writing from this very hostile space, where they're not supposed to be women thinking about their situation as women, but also as it's impacted, right, like, by class, by race, um, you know, if we look at Mary Wollstonecraft, for example, she's, she's thinking about, um, the ways that, that women are educated, right, to disempower them, to force them into this role of service. But then she, at the same time, is, like, critiquing the ruling class for being so far removed from the world, um, and from the people who live in it, that they don't even know what it means to be, like, happy anymore. I was, like, teaching some of Mary Wollstonecraft this semester, and there's this one section where she's, like, “oh, like, the, the ultra-wealthy person no longer knows how to be happy. They're so removed from ideas of happiness that they just kind of, like, spin in their wealth,” and I'm thinking about people like Elon Musk, who have everything they could ever want, but they don't even know what it would mean to be happy. They'll never be happy people. Um, so, so I think she's thinking from this standpoint of, of being excluded from the world while she's still in the world, but also across multiple angles about, like, not just, like, how does gender work, but also how does class work? So I, I think it's a really expansive way of thinking.
Anna 47:47
Yeah, that's so interesting. That reminds me of something that Ding said in our last episode, that her way of thinking about gender starts with how trans people do gender, as opposed to thinking about how to retrofit trans people into gender schemes that don't assume trans and non-binary people. So, like, I was just thinking about what you were saying about Wollstonecraft's, like, starting point than having implications for, um, all sorts of areas that we can lend our minds to. And that's maybe a really helpful way of proceeding when we're thinking about gender, but also precisely, um, more generally when we're thinking about what is true of human beings, if there is anything that is true of all human beings, right? What are our points of departure? And how do they affect our theorizing?
Kristin 48:36
Yeah, like, is any, is anyone happy with this system? Like, can we, like, if, can, if we start from sort of these other sort of maybe even traditional philosophy questions around what is happiness? What's a good life? What is, you know, that, that those could actually,themselves fire massive critiques in, in forms of oppression, um, that don't really sustain,you know, particular things. Of course, we have to watch out how we're, how we're thinking of the, the human there, because the lots gets smuggled in
Anna 49:07
Yeah. When we were at the conference listening to papers and to conversations during question periods, I was thinking about this again, like, it's true that the work at the conference assumed that people exist and that their ways of making sense of and their experiences of the world might tell us something important about human being, uh, to core as a whole, how the world works, um, how our social institutions, um, operate and what we might seek out in our lives. And yet you can hear even in all of the brief clips that we've been playing from the conference that people working in trans philosophy understand it in different ways and in a variety of ways.And that's a feature of, um, trans philosophy, but it's also a feature of feminist philosophy and of course, really philosophy in all forms, which is, um, a really, kind of interesting connection to make throughout, lots of different forms of philosophy.
Kristin 50:03
So we sort of wanted to just ask you, you know, how do you understand philosophy, um, or, you know, to use Anna's word, she likes to ask, you know, “what's the story you tell about philosophy?” Yeah.
Amy 50:16
Yeah. I think, you know, I have kind of an interesting personal relationship with philosophy. Um, so I wasn't sure, like, I, I really struggled in, in high school, like a lot due to like, you know, like gender stuff and also like the way I was treated in school. And I wasn't sure if I'd even like graduate from high school for a bit. So it felt like a big achievement that I was like going to a university and, and I think, I don't know, I wasn't like so career focused. I was just like, I get to be in this place with like cool people who think about things. And I was like, I'm going to be a philosophy major. So I actually like went to undergrad, knowing that I wanted to be a philosophy major. Um, and I took a women's studies class and I was like, oh, this is really cool too. So I ended up like double majoring in philosophy and women's studies and I felt like women's studies, like was a really helpful grounded discipline. You know, like I was taking classes from, from Simon [Ruchti],
Kristin 51:13
Oh!
Amy 51:13
Who you interviewed.
Kristin 51:19
Wow!
Amy 51:19
I was also, yeah. So, Simon [Ruchti] is one of my like undergrad mentors, but I was also taking like classes in English and Sociology. And at the same time, I'm taking philosophy classes. And I think there was like an interesting, you know, interplay between the philosophy and women's studies classes, but also this was like, I really lucked out where the place where I could go and afford had a really great, like feminist philosophy group. So, that was really nice. So I think I really loved philosophy to kind of start out with. I really liked just learning all these different methods of thinking about the world and, and just like really challenging the ways that I think about the world. And I think that that's like, That to me is a really important core to it. Um, and then I think, like, you know, I got to grad school and that was kind of complicated because, like, I couldn't find a job in, like, 2010 when I originally graduated because there was, like, a big recession.
Anna 52:14
Yeah.
Amy 52:14
I got, like, rejected for a job at GameStop and then I got an acceptance at University of Oregon and I was like, okay, like, I can keep studying this stuff and also have, like, a job of a sort, right? Like, as a teaching assistant, um, and then as a teacher directly. Um, but I think, I got very excited in, like, the mid-2010s with, you know, the so-called trans moment and we had, like, the conference and that, like, shifted up my life in some interesting ways. And I started to kind of, like, hate philosophy, I think, once it got very involved in, l, uh, kind of, like, the anti-trans backlash stuff, like, probably you can find old, you know, just exasperated blog posts by, or, I mean, like, like, comments on, like, the Daily Nous or something from me, like, late 2010s. And I hated philosophy and then I… kind of tried to quit for a bit. Um, but that sucked even worse than being in the academy. So, like, I came back and then I ended up teaching, like, the history of philosophy courses at, like, Gettysburg College. So, it's almost like I feel like I rebooted my interest because it's like, oh, like, “I used to, you know, take these courses! Now, I'm, like, teaching ancient Greek and Roman philosophy and I'm teaching early modern and I'm teaching, 19th century and Kant!” And, and it felt like I could kind of, like, reboot and, like, explore the canon a bit, right? Like, how do we make this canon more diverse? So, I think I kind of fell back in love with it again.
And then I ended up, you know, leaving for, like, Women's and Gender Studies, but I'm also in it frequently still. I'm still around conferences. And I, yeah, I think I do call myself a philosopher semi-frequently. So, I think I have this interesting kind of, like, arc back and forth where ultimately, I think I like philosophy just because of the ways that it challenges. And I think I don't like philosophy where it feels like, you know, like, people are designing, a tabletop role-playing game [Kristin laughing; Anna agrees] about the world that then they say “that's the real world.” And also in a way where it feels like they're trying to, like, “rules lawyer” you [Kristin laughing] so that you're, like, a bad type of person. And it's just, like, you know, stop being such a nerd. I don't, you know, like, like, stop being, like, an evil nerd about it.
[Anna laughs loudly]
[music plays]
Anna 54:40
It's, it's, it's so important, I think, to, uh, attend to the reasons that we do philosophy because I think there's wisdom there and that needs to be treated carefully.
Riley 54:52
What brings me to trans philosophy?
First and foremost, I think I came to it in an attempt to understand myself. Um, I am trans, and I came to trans philosophy while doing my master's. Um, Which was coincidentally when I was transitioning. you know, it was this, um, somewhat selfish inward to say, "Actually, no, I really care about understanding where I fit in in the world and what's going on with And then eventually with people around me and people I surround myself with." and I think that is in itself important. I think we should all strive to, to concern ourselves with what we are concerned with. and I think there's something beautiful about trans studies because so often trans studies is about, um, from a produce of severe trauma. And going together and working together and building something communicative.
Alanah 54:54
So I kind of ended up in, at, with Trans Philosophy, really by accident. and I still kind of feel, uh, a little bit overwhelmed, a little bit out of place, being here. I, uh, my current research project looks at transracialism. Although my wider research interests are in racial liminality and, uh, theories and critiques of identity. There's some really amazing work coming out of Black Trans Theory, and the, uh, and the kind of theorists from this tradition that I'm working with most would be Marquise Bay, Trevor Ellison, Kay Marshall Green. And what I found when I was reading this work, coming from kind of a gender studies background, is that there was all of this discussion about, about metaphysics, um, that I really knew nothing about. I don't have any philosophy education, not even kind of at school, let alone at the degree level. And I was finding myself reading these arguments about Heideggerian dialectics and metaphysics as a, as a regime of ontology that I just had no, I had no framework to understand. And so I, as I was reading more of really exciting and radical Black Trans Theory that was challenging in a, in a really fundamental and wholesale way, the, how we think about identity, how we think about subjectivity, I found myself, uh, digging more and more into canons of philosophy, and particularly interested in how trans theorists were using, challenging, re-imagining, reimagining, um, classic philosophy. So yeah, I would say that's kind of how I ended up at Trans Philosophy, maybe a roundabout kind of way, and I'm still, finding my, finding my feet here. Yeah, I think it's kind of, uh, I think, um, I think it's kind of proving to be essential to answer the questions that I'm, that I'm most interested in, which are really around, racialized ontology, particularly Black ontology, and, what what it means to re-imagine, uh, or escape the, the, th social order, um, that we've, that we've been given.
[music playing]
Kristin 58:39
So Alanah's describing encountering the canon of philosophy, but working on a project in Black trans theory.
Anna 58:48
Yeah, and that's not often how we come into the philosophical canon, and I'm really thinking about the differences of importance and usefulness and the different angles of approach that, that that kind entry point creates. And I love for Alanah that she has this non-orthodox entry in philosophy. I mean, that's kind of, um, wonderful. And that even still, she's working with philosophers, including, like, Heidegger, um, which is just really fascinating to me.
Kristin 59:13
Yeah, and to like, big questions like ontology, identity, subjectivity, you know, these are big contested terrains, you know?
Anna 59:23
Yeah, yeah, ontology is, you know, one of these words we like to use, but why don't we maybe touch base on the meaning of racial ontology. We can describe this in a number of ways, but, um, “racial ontologies,” refers to the ways that communities produce and conceptualize racial difference, and then organize that into social orders, and so we can study those orders and those concepts.
Kristin 59:42
Yeah, like so an example of racial ontology would just be white supremacy. Like, whiteness is a real thing, it orders the world.
Anna 59:50
[interrupts] Yup. Wait! Once more for the people at the back, Kristin, the white people at the back! Once more for the white people at the back!
Kristin 59:55
[laughs, obliges] Whiteness is a structure of thinking, uh, among other things, it orders and structures, you know, our understandings of the world, and, you know, one of the things I love, uh, again, going back to the Elizabeth Spellman, I don't know, I reorganized all the books in my office, and it sort of shuffled my own internal canon. And, uh, and it's like a physical thinking space, but I was thinking about this implicit whiteness and gender as being a problem that is not overcome. You know, we tell stories about progress and feminist thinking, and just because we've had critique, it doesn't mean that, that the thing that we're critiquing is resolved. You know, critique is not elimination. But I was thinking about implicit whiteness and gender. She talks about white solipsism, Right, which is kind of a, uh, also a philosopher's word, meaning, you know, uh, someone who thinks only they exist, right? Or only they have a soul or, or, or something like that. It's, it's, it's not a good thing to be. Um, white solipsism would be the idea that white people define reality and one in which only they exist or only they matter, maybe is another way to put that. So this is the way that the concept of human gets defined according to whiteness and like to go back to something you were saying, Amy, and some of our other contributors is just a philosophy as this sort of laser focus on assumptions. What are the assumptions behind? And that's that move, right? About, about looking at what's in behind, uh, our forms of thinking.
Anna 1:01:28
Yeah. I love Spelman's work so much. I think we need to put something by Elizabeth Spelman on our, um, list of episode to-dos. Spelman draws on arguments from Black theorists and many Black women for so many of the things she's thinking about, in terms of whiteness, Lorde and [W.E.B.] Du Bois and Smith. And I'm also thinking about Lewis Gordon, who's a Black philosopher who works on Black ontology and he's shown the ways that, um, Blackness or the Black self, the Black subject is often defined by others, specifically by white others. Um, so Blackness ends up being understood and defined in the sort of dominant social space in and through whiteness in ways that presume that Blackness is dehumanized or outside of the human. And whiteness, he points out, often gets formed as a lived concept of humanness by making Blackness precisely outside of humanness. And the social order assumes that white selves are human and Blackness is outside of the human. And then if you exist as a Black self or Black subject, Black person, you're experiencing a kind of doubling of yourself, navigating the world, um, as it's defined in and through whiteness.
There's this line of thinking that goes back at least to [W.E.B.] Du Bois. And I think before that, one of the ways to understand living Blackness in under white supremacy is to notice that to do that, you have to be a self for yourself, b you're also a different kind of self for white others. And Du Bois calls this double consciousness. So starting with thinking like trans philosophy or Black ontology or Black trans theory gives us a starting point for thinking about precisely as Alanah says, this reimagining or escape of the social order that we've been given. And maybe starting there can be an interesting way to also locate ourselves or, as Riley says, to concern ourselves with what we're concerned with
Kristin 1:03:26
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the, I guess we're, interested too Amy about, you know, coming to trans philosophy, you know, uh, coming through philosophy, but, you talked us through your reboot. So I, I'd be interested in sort of how you come to trans philosophy as a sub-discipline or, or as a way of doing.
Amy 1:03:51
Yeah. Um, so I wrote like in 2009 or so, I wrote, um, kind of for like my final, you know, women's studies, like Feminist Theory class project. I wrote what I called, like, my senior antithesis,
[Kristin and Anna chuckle]
Amy 1:04:09
and I was starting to think about some of this stuff. Like, what would a trans philosophy look like? And then I kind of tabled it, because I was trying to just not be out as trans anymore. I had, like, kind of a complicated, like, personal situation with that, with, like, a partner whose, like, family didn't know I was trans, and all kinds of, like, you know, complicated stuff around that. So I feel like, I feel like kind of, like, when I heard that Megan Burke was, uh, running the, the trans experience in philosophy conference, and, like, got a grant for it and stuff, um, along with Fulden Ibrahimhakkioglu, um, that's, like, the moment I decided I'm gonna, like, be out as trans again. So I actually came out, I remember coming out to Megan in that moment. So, like, me, coming to trans philosophy was also kind of, like, me, like, being more open to thinking about, like, what's my relation to transness?
Um, so, I feel like, in a lot of ways, um, trans philosophy, or, or my, like, you know, coming to trans philosophy has been, a really social thing. And I actually got to teach, a trans philosophy course in 2015. So while we were planning the Trans* Experience in Philosophy Conference and I was just thinking about how do we rethink identity or action or community in this context? So I think grappling with transness was also a way of thinking about, if I center this topic, what does it mean for how I should respond to the rest of the world and who my friends should be and how I'm seen by other people? So I think there's very much a personal teaching, but also scholarly crossover with trying to figure that out.
Anna 1:06:13
Yeah…. that's so interesting.
[sound of book pages flipping]
So Amy, you told us a bit about the book that you're working on, Trans Fascination,
Kristin 1:06:23
Pre-print!
Anna 1:06:24
which we weren't joking about… we would like some pre-prints. But we also know that you are editing a book with Isobel Bess on film and that you started a film series. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
Amy 1:06:38
Yeah, so Isobel Bess, who I've been kind of like writing with and thinking with and also living with for a good like eight years now. Yeah, we decided to like start co-writing together while I was working at Lafayette College, she was working at ArtsQuest in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, which is like a... So they have like this old like steel mill in Bethlehem. It's like the steel mill that like Billy Joel sings about, but he called the song like Allentown because Bethlehem didn't rhyme properly. But anyway, so they turned this into like a non-profit space. And she was doing a lot of like film programming there and also like helping to run like stand-up comedy events. So that's also how we got, you know, like kind of engaged with like trying out stand-up comedy. But yeah, yeah. So we got pretty into like trans film. Mainly she got into it and then like I was like, oh, what are you up to? So we have a forthcoming essay called “Atmospheres of Conversion,” where we think about some recent trans films. So that's, uh, uh, I Saw the TV Glow and The People's Joker, um, kind of as a staging of the ways that like, cis society, I feel like structures, the world we live in to act as a kind of conversion therapy against us.
Kristin 1:08:15
Wow.
Amy 1:08:17
We're kind of grappling with that a bit. Um, so Isobel helped set up a film series at Hallwalls, and, and I'm involved with it. Um, and Andrea Pitts at University of Buffalo is involved with it.
Kristin 1:08:29
Cool.
Amy 1:08:29
And, and Loren Pilcher at University of Buffalo is involved with it. Uh, so, yeah. We have our first screening. It's of the film, uh, Lingua Franca on May 1st, May Day, which I think is a really good date for it, because it's about an undocumented trans woman and the work that she does, and also care, and intimacy, and some really complicated ways. Um, so, yeah. We’re excited to do, you know, like a, a co-written book project that's also, like, kind of a social event. But also thinking about, you know, what's the meaning of, like, trans social events.
Kristin 1:09:05
Mm.
Anna 1:09:05
Yes. Yeah. Wonderful. And we'll put links to all of that, um, uh, in our show notes. And, uh, people can find it on the website. Yeah. That's amazing.
[theme music plays]
Kristin 1:09:15
Well, that's a wonderful way for us to kind of wrap up. It sounds like just projects everywhere that are spawning off, and, you know, I was sort of looking at that and feeling really, uh, privileged that we came to this conference and that we got to meet and learn, um, from people, but also to kind of think together. I'm kind of sad we're done in a way, but glad we're ending on a nice note.
Anna 1:09:49
Yes, thank you so much for ending with us, Amy. It’s just an absolute joy and delight to have you with us.
Kristin 1:09:50
Yeah. Thank you.
Amy 1:09:57
Thank you.
[theme music plays]
Anna 1:10:01
If you would like to contribute, guest produce, or suggest pieces of philosophy for our next episodes, please go to our website, thinkingbodiespod.com. We're also on Instagram at thinkingbodiespod. We're very happy to do it together.
Kristin 1:10:14
Yes, we are. And I want to say thank you to Alanah Mortlock and Riley Lewicki. And a huge thank you to Amy Marvin. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to everyone who works at the Skillman Library at Lafayette College for organizing and hosting the Thinking Trans/Trans Thinking Conference. All of the references for what we mentioned today on the podcast are available on our website, along with detailed descriptive transcripts of all of our episodes are also on our website. Find us, like, and subscribe. And I'd like to say, “rate and review!” [laughs]
Anna 1:10:59
[laughs] Oh, okay.
Kristin 1:11:02
Just… I'm supposed to.
Anna 1:11:04
Our theme music is by Seth Makes Sounds and Joseph Pres. This podcast is funded by a University of Regina President's Research Seed Grant. Thank you so much to the Amplified Podcast Network for all of your mentorship and getting this podcast created. And thank you to Ayodeji Ademola-Aleem for administrative support.
I'm Anna Mudde. I'm on the lands of the Michif/Métis Nation, and the lands of the Nehiyawak, the Anishinaabek, Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota peoples, which is also called Pile Bones. And Kristin Rode is recording today Amiskwaciwâskahikan, homelands of the Plains Cree, the Woodland Cree, the Beaver Cree, the Ojibwe, and the Métis, Also called Beaver Hills House.
[theme music plays]
Amy 1:11:46
The… okay, so, so as a, as a heads up before you're, like, “oh, I'm gonna check out this movie!” It's, like, pretty edgy. With a lot of, like, I think some really complicated aspects of trans life. Um, and it's, like, about 10 hours long if you want to watch the first two parts so its like…
[Kristin laughs]
Anna 1:12:04
Oh! Oh. I was like, “Amy, are you telling me I don't look edgy enough for this movie?” [smiling]
Amy
No, no… it’s just… multiple things are going on.
[theme music fades out]
Anna
You're, you're telling me that it's a long sit. I got it. Okay! [laughs]